Shataina ([info]dragonladyflame) wrote,
@ 2008-03-20 00:34:00
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Roxanne, you don't have to put on that red light
Notwithstanding my (possibly in bad taste) joke at the beginning of my last entry, I have actually been devoting some serious thought to the Eliot Spitzer scandal.

Spitzer, for those who aren't as fully in the loop as a New Yorker might be, became famous as an extremely ethical Attorney General. He went after the fat cats, for instance -- Wall Street doubtless cracked open some serious champagne bottles upon hearing of his political demise. And, in fact, he spent quite a lot of time breaking up prostitution rings (yes, he broke up more than one!). He was voted in as Governor because he had such a badass, such an amazingly ethical record.

So what are we to make of the fact that he was busted hiring a prostitute for thousands of dollars per hour? And, in fact, apparently had a habit of hiring such prostitutes? Apparently, Spitzer's expensive prostitute habit cost him somewhere around $80-100k (that sounds like a lot, but when you think about it, how many hours of Ashley Alexandra Dupré's time does it even buy? maybe one day? -- let's call it 24-48 total hours). This seems especially crazy when you consider the fact that Spitzer himself pushed to instate higher penalties for the patrons of prostitutes (hereafter referred to as johns).

I haven't fully brought all my thoughts together, so I'll take the numbered approach.

1) Do I think Spitzer did a bad thing? Yes. I think he betrayed his wife. Her expression during his speech made it more than clear that Mr. Spitzer did not clear his activities with Mrs. Spitzer ahead of time. So, he betrayed his wife. And that's a bastardly thing to do. Period.

1a) However, betraying one's wife -- while a bastardly thing to do -- does not make someone into an irredeemably Bad Person. If he were younger and hotter and had lots of stuff in common with me, would I marry him? Hell no. And I wouldn't advise another woman to marry him, either. And if I were friends with his wife, I would damn well spit in his face. And if I were his wife, I would either shoot him in the head, or divorce him as soon as possible; certainly I would never forgive him -- he cheated in a prolonged, premeditated, dishonest and even risky (STI-wise) fashion. But still, the act of cheating on his wife does not intrinsically make him a horrible man. It doesn't even, necessarily, make him an unethical man.

1b) Just as a side note, isn't it funny how so many people who quickly leapt to Bill Clinton's defense during Monicagate are shifting their feet and pulling back from Eliot Spitzer?

2) Do I think Spitzer was a hypocrite? Maybe. I've thought over and over about what was going through his head. Did his urge to punish johns come from a deep-seated guilt? Did his dogged work against prostitution rings also arise partly from that deep-seated guilt?

2a) I doubt it. Why? Because, as was best summed up by my friend Zach (who once interned with Spitzer), "the hooker rings he busted as an AG were more of the human trafficking variety than the $5000/hr variety." In other words, the prostitution that Spitzer cracked down on was closer to rape / abuse / sex slavery than it was to a white, educated, English-speaking American citizen freely consenting to have sex for money. And, of course, the johns he thought deserved punishment were doing something a lot more analogous to paying for rape than paying for consensual sex.

3) Do I feel bad for Ashley Alexandra Dupré, a.k.a. Kristen? Hell no -- at least not for the prostitution thing. Let's look at her lifestyle: she had a flat in Manhattan whose rent was literally thousands of dollars per month; the building has a pool, a gym, and God knows what else. And let's look at her profession: struggling singer.

She's clearly not an idiot -- her MySpace page is impressively free of grammatical errors and stupidity -- and she's goddamn beautiful. It would have been extremely easy for her to support herself, perhaps a bit less extravagantly, with a "real" job. For instance, she could have chosen to live in a less costly place and take a part-time job in order to support herself while she worked on her art. It wouldn't even have been that bad -- after all, that's pretty close to what I'm doing, and my life is pretty awesome. But instead, she chose to have sex for thousands of dollars per hour. That is not even close to tragic.

4) Do I think that Eliot Spitzer is a scumbag for paying Ashley Alexandra Dupré to have sex with him? Absolutely not. In fact, I think that Eliot Spitzer probably drew on his vast experience as Attorney General to find prostitutes who were not pressured into becoming prostitutes -- who were not raped -- who were not trafficked. In other words, he specifically went to the most ethical possible prostitute.

5) The Smoking Gun has released some pages from the affidavit that have an interestingly close focus on Client 9, Eliot Spitzer. So what were the investigator's priorities, exactly? Here's another quotation from Zach for you: "What were federal investigators doing monitoring a state government official to check for bribery?" And right in an election year! I mean, I'm not saying that he didn't do it, but I am saying that this is a bit of a convenient scandal. edit Okay, so I wasn't super well-informed before, but now I am better informed. It seems that the Feds deliberately pulled out all the stops on Spitzer (including calling in multiple 12+-member shadow teams, etc). Their justification for this is "Well, we wouldn't normally put so much effort into breaking up a prostitution ring, but with such a highly placed politician we had to put more effort into discovering wrongdoing." Riiiight .... /edit

6) Does this case make me angry? Yes, it does -- but not because I'm all that mad at Eliot Spitzer, even though he did a bastardly thing.

As always, I'm angry at the media. The papers, TV, etc. are treating this case as if it's all about insane hypocrisy -- he brought down prostitution and yet patronized prostitutes! gasp! -- when a minimum of reflection will show that Eliot Spitzer was not patronizing the kind of prostitutes whose activities he aimed to take down. There's a huge difference between (a) an illiterate downtrodden woman whose pimp beats her, rapes her and takes all her money ... and (b) Ashley Alexandra Dupré. There's a world of difference. Eliot Spitzer was patronizing the second, not the first -- and it really says something about how fucked up Americans are, that everyone seems to think that patronizing the second is practically the same as the first.

The distinction is more than just important. It's crucial. Apparently, most Americans consider Ashley Alexandra Dupré to be just as victimized as your average street whore -- or, conversely, they consider your average street whore to be just as empowered as Ashley Alexandra Dupré. The failure to grasp the difference is at the heart of much current commentary on this issue.

Furthermore, the same Americans who brushed off Bill Clinton's routine unfaithfulness are hissing and spitting at Eliot Spitzer's scarce, consensual, non-emotionally-engaging unfaithfulness. In fact, New York -- which failed to punish Giuliani for his flagrant, corrupt, continuing affairs -- is forcing Spitzer to step down for 24-48 hours of sex.

7) I am probably somewhat influenced by the crazy fantasy series I have been reading lately (a somewhat ridiculous set of books by Jacqueline Carey whose main character is an extreme S&M courtesan chosen by the gods -- the first half of the first one, Kushiel's Dart, is awesome and filled with well-written complex intrigue; the rest of the first one and all of the succeeding ones seem to have devolved into less interesting, less complicated, travel-focused fantasy; anyway I do recommend the first one, though you have to be able to handle some BDSM-y scenes). But ... wouldn't it be nice if prostitution wasn't viewed as a degrading horrible thing? Wouldn't it be fantastic if selling one's body was viewed as, not just reasonable, but respectable -- even, perhaps, holy?

The fact that a woman selling sex is seen as such an awful thing tells us a lot about how sex is viewed in general. If we didn't see sex as something that women ought to be avoiding as much as possible in the first place, then we wouldn't be so horrified by the idea of women doing it for something as crass as money. I've no idea how to fix this one, but it bothers me.

8) (By the way, if you're interested in a really well-thought-out, balanced, feminist look at the issue of prostitution and legalization, please please read this excellent interview from Feministe.com: Interview with the Sex Workers Project in NYC. A lot of the comments are awesome, too.)


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[info]fleurs_du_mal
2008-03-20 07:05 am UTC (link)
Meh, I realize that this is probably more of an emotional reaction than a rational one, but I think that he is unequivocally a hypocrite, has really hurt his family and hasn't exactly done the state of New York a service through his actions in that area. Also, as much as I'd like to be open to the whole idea of prostitution, from what I've seen of it up close it's quite ugly in action no matter how much money is being thrown about, as is the drug world (and I'm not talking about campus pot-heads, I'm talking about the bigger fish...NOT pretty, especially not pretty seeing someone you've hung out with laid out in a coffin at the age of 21 from an overdose).
At the same time, I think it's a little ridiculous how much the press has latched onto this whole 'scandal.' There are far more important things to think about/talk about in the real world right now, but sex scandals and other bullshit similarly suited to the tabloids still seem to take precedent. Ick.

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[info]basseykay
2008-03-20 11:27 am UTC (link)
This is the most intelligent discussion of the Spitzer scandal that I've seen. Of course I might be saying that because it more or less sums up my own feelings on the matter. (Though you have, of course, done a far better job of putting it all in words than I ever could have done.)

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[info]fatalconceit
2008-03-20 03:54 pm UTC (link)
I agree, this is very well-put. He's a total sleaze for cheating, but no more a hypocrite than law-and-order types who break the speed limit, I think.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-21 10:18 pm UTC (link)
The speed limit thing is a good example, I think. Really, if Spitzer is a hypocrite it's because he broke the law, not because of the specific law he broke -- which as I noted, really had very little resemblance (beyond the superficial) to do with laws he upheld anyway. And we all break laws, like when we speed.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-21 10:16 pm UTC (link)
Sweet, thanks!

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[info]heliograph
2008-03-20 02:18 pm UTC (link)
Have you seen the stories about her week on the Girls Gone Wild bus?

This one seems the least sensational and most fact-filled:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23698741/

My understanding is that the participants in the GGW media don't get paid. After a week they bought her a bus ticket back home... apparently when they found out she was 17.

Assuming this story holds up, what do you make of that?

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-21 10:33 pm UTC (link)
Oh man. I heard about it from you first. There's a great (and by great I mean terrible, but culturally revealing) thread over at the SomethingAwful forums with a title that's something like, "Alexandra Dupré: High class whore or common Girls Gone Wild skank?" And my favourite (and by favourite I mean ... etc) quotation from this thread so far is: "If I were Spitzer I'd be pretty pissed right now. For what he spent you'd expect something a little higher caliber than a common Girls Gone Wild skank, right?"

No, Girls Gone Wild participants don't get paid ... I believe they get a hat and a t-shirt, or something. This story seems pretty clearly accurate. I guess I have a few reactions ....

1) Is this going to increase the number of people white-knighting Dupré as a "victim" in the press, or decrease it? I'm not sure.

2) Is this going to increase her "brand" value, or decrease it? Not sure about that one, either ... but I'm thinking decrease. Maybe decrease a lot. The "common GGW skank" phrase says it all, really.

3) I wonder if this will decrease the willingness of random chicks to do Girls Gone Wild, since it can easily be interpreted as a kind of "slippery slope" argument in itself?

4) Really, how much cultural difference is there between basically doing the lightest possible porn, and actually prostituting yourself? The law says one's illegal and one's not, and I certainly agree that there's a big difference in "scale" (for lack of a better word), but ....

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[info]heliograph
2008-03-21 11:10 pm UTC (link)
I just thought it said something about her judgment (at 17, anyway). I actually have some sympathy for somebody who (in their drunken impairment) gets taken advantage of by the GGW jerks. But can you be drunkenly impaired for a whole week?

1) & 2) I really think it'll depend on if GGW can publish the material. If people (generally) don't see something it doesn't exist.

3) Aside from my impaired drunkeness example above, I can't understand why anybody does it. I can understand why you'd do it for money, but for free?

4) I don't have a handy link, but I seem to remember a court case about that very situation: men paid to finance a porn movie (and participated in the film) and a state or local government claimed it was just a front for prostitution. Googling may turn up more.

IIRC, if you're willing to film it and make it available for sale, it doesn't count as prostitution.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-22 12:45 am UTC (link)
Heh. Mike (just below) has previously commented on the strangeness of the "filmed = totally legal porn, unfilmed = illegal prostitution" thing before.

Did you read the link I posted ... um, a while back ... about GGW? It's interesting, if depressing: [ http://www.latimes.com/features/magazine/west/la-tm-gonewild32aug06,0,2664370.story ] God, Joe Francis is such a scumbag.

But yeah, the whole Girls Gone Wild thing is interesting. You get attention, I guess. You get your hotness validated, and everyone knows nothing is more important for a woman than being hot. You prove to yourself and all your friends that you're not just sexy, but adventurous "liberated".

(And I mean, who am I to naysay the whole liberation factor? I think I'd regard any guy who told me that I'm not "liberated" if I don't flash my tits at him as a jerk, but who knows, maybe the fact that I feel uncomfortable about doing it does indicate a certain amount of unfortunate shame and issues. The fact that most people have that same shame / those same issues doesn't necessarily make them awesome :grin:.)

At any rate, yeah ... I think it really does come down to wanting to girls wanting to show how sexy and adventurous and liberated they are. Afterwards, you get an "I was soooo drunk!" type story to tell, only way more exciting. And guys will totally be all over you. :shrug:

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[info]heliograph
2008-03-22 04:19 am UTC (link)
Yep, everything I know about GGW comes from your blog and The Colbert Report!

http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertreport/videos.jhtml?videoId=76489

I grew up in the New Orleans area, so flashing your tits for beads isn't a totally alien concept to me. But doing it knowing there's a permanent record?

There's definitely something there, though I can't grasp it myself. Back in the mid-80s my girlfriend at the time wanted me to take naked pictures of her until I pointed out that unless I developed them myself there was no way to know who'd see 'em.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-24 07:47 pm UTC (link)
I mean, I've done my share of naked / semi-naked shenanigans. I always figured there was no way in hell I'd make a record of it, though recently I had cause to reconsider.

For instance, when I first heard about those sites where disgruntled guys can post naked pictures of their exes, I decided that no man would ever have naked pictures of me, ever. But I later thought about it more when a guy I was briefly involved with (he didn't ask me for naked pictures, he was just telling me this story) mentioned that an ex had given him naked pictures ... and he felt really protective of them and somewhat guilty. He pointed out that she'd really trusted him, and he would feel awful if he betrayed that trust. So, is my unwillingness to never trust a boyfriend -- ever -- no matter how honorable he seems, really just a form of reverse-misogyny ("no man could be trusted with naked pictures of me, because all men are braggarty assmonkeys with no respect for women!")?

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-25 06:26 pm UTC (link)
Oh man, here's a link for you.


http://www.missbimbo.com/

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[info]heliograph
2008-03-22 10:41 pm UTC (link)
Consider the source, but:

Celebrity website People.com reports today that back in 2003, when she was a girl going wild, Ashley Alexandra Dupre explained why she decided to strip on camera.

"You might as well show off what you have before you don't have it any more!" the future alleged call girl told the Palm Beach Post in an interview unearthed this week.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-24 07:43 pm UTC (link)
That's not a real reason, though ... that's the kind of offhand flippant thing people say when they're trying to justify something they secretly think is irrational. Still, at the very least, the fact that she was willing to be so flippant is most likely pretty revealing about her future feelings too :P

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[info]miketodd13
2008-03-20 07:48 pm UTC (link)
I agree that the media is just going for the sensational angle. Is there irony in this story? Hell yes. Is there hypocrisy? Not so much. The first is being painted as the second. Because the second attracts more eyes and ears.

Re: Kushiel's Dart, that came to me highly recommended by an ex, but I didn't so much trust her reading taste. But on your recommendation, that is now on The List. Thanks for that! And if you aren't already familiar with it, you might want to check out GoodReads.com -- you can rate books you've read, recommend books to friends, see what books friends are reading/have read, etc. I've just started on there, so I'm still in the process of entering books I've read, but it seems neat.

You might also want to check out BookLamp.org. Though I have yet to try it myself (just heard about it the other day), it is, "A system that matches users to books based on a full-text analysis of the novel, like how Pandora matches music. It measures elements like action, dialog, and description, graphs them for you scene-by-scene, and uses that to find other books that have similar writing style." It's still in its early stages, so the selection is apparently limited, but I plan to try it out. It's been far too long since I've read seriously.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-21 10:37 pm UTC (link)
Hmm, a couple of people have referred me to GoodReads. Maybe I'll actually check it out one of these days. And wow, the concept behind BookLamp looks interesting. I'm very skeptical, but I'll keep an eye on it.

Kushiel's Dart is very good. Again, it's definitely got some explicitness going on. I was particularly impressed with the first half, like I said in my post ... it has a lot of really good intrigue and social maneuvering, and the setting is quite well-realized, if a bit far into the ... how to say this? ... "romance novel fantasy" spectrum. I was disappointed when it sort of segued into slightly more stereotypical (though, of course, the main character is still an extreme BDSM courtesan :P) adventure fantasy, and the followup books get succeedingly worse (of course I've read them all anyway :grin:). If you read it, let me know -- I wrote the author a letter a bit back and I'd be interested to know your reaction to it.

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[info]miketodd13
2008-03-21 10:41 pm UTC (link)
It will be in my next book order, and I look forward to reading the letter. :) Oh, and Jacqueline Carey was at DragonCon a couple of years back -- she might come every year, but I mainly remember because Nemmy (the ex who recommended that series) was all, "SQUEEE!!!"

Man, now I'm even more excited to read it. The Count of Monte Cristo was next on my list, but that might need to get bumped back.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-21 10:54 pm UTC (link)
:grin: I bet the book's courtiers could teach Virtuous Lion a few tricks.

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[info]miketodd13
2008-03-21 10:56 pm UTC (link)
Haha, all right. Now it's at the top of my list. I hope you're happy. ;)

Oh, and also, because it's been far too long since I've heard a "your mom" joke from you... I taught your mom a few tricks last night.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-21 10:59 pm UTC (link)
Well at least (unlike your mom) my mom's not a trick herself! HA!

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[info]miketodd13
2008-03-21 11:02 pm UTC (link)
Hahaha, thank you for putting a big smile on my face. I've missed ya, Lyds.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-21 11:04 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, nothing like your mom jokes disguised as smart contemporary commentary. :grin:

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[info]nathan_adler
2008-03-21 12:46 am UTC (link)
For once, I agree with you almost completely on this :-) I think it's completely despicable how Ashley Dupree has ben simultaneously demonized and celebritized by the media. However, no matter what angle you look at it, his actions do completely invalidate him politically.

Valleywag, a Silicon Valley gossip blog, has picked up a sex blogger, who says that for $4-5K you're getting an overnight girlfriend experience. So in reality, it's more like 20-25 overnight visits.

Also, I just finished the first Kushiel's series as well. They are a bit predictable, though:

1.) Proud revelry in sexual nature
2.) Political Intruigue
3.) Humiliation
4.) Capture
5.) Non-consensual revelry in sexual nature
6.) Escape
7.) Climax of various sorts
8.) Redemption
9.) Huge Fucking party

I think I should stop reading series :-/

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-21 10:41 pm UTC (link)
It kinda sucks that his actions invalidate him politically, I have to say. I mean, come on guys ... Clinton is a much worse person than Spitzer ... there were multiple allegations of rape, for God's sake!

Can I just say that the "girlfriend experience" is a phrase that has always made me go :psyduck:? Now that's some more fucked up cultural territory, right there.

Your summary of the books about Phèdre is incredibly accurate. Sigh. I just finished the last Terre d'Ange book so far published (the second Imriel book) ... the Imriel books are okay, but I think the writing is teaching me a number of lessons about what not to do.

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[info]alanajoli
2008-03-21 03:33 am UTC (link)
This is really insightful--more interesting than the news articles I've read with a clearer sum-up. ;) Honestly, given that I didn't do much research besides headline reading, I hadn't decided on the unethical bit. My reaction to Spitzer was more classically the thought that this was a pretty darn dumb activity to partake of. Politicians who engage in questionable activities have a higher-than-the-average-joe likelihood of getting caught, particularly in a year when folks are looking for scandals. So how dumb (not in intelligence, perhaps, but common sense) do you have to be to engage in what many Americans will look at as unethical and criminal (which, to be fair, it is against the law) behavior?

But now I feel informed on the other parts of it as well, so thanks for being better media than the media. :)

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-21 10:47 pm UTC (link)
It's true that it was definitely a dumb thing to do ... it's also clear that he's been doing it for a while now, though, so maybe he got overconfident. In a way, I wish he'd just had a long-term mistress that he supported. I'd see it as pretty much exactly the same thing, and we might not have lost a pretty talented politician over it. :P

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[info]vahkvahk
2008-03-21 11:47 am UTC (link)
I'm so sure I skimmed this post last night before going to bed and thought you had written a long rant about Louis Dupre and modern modes of thought.

Glad to find out this morning it was actually all about hot chicks and sex!

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-21 10:47 pm UTC (link)
Do I look like a UChicago student to you? Nerd.

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[info]vahkvahk
2008-03-21 10:53 pm UTC (link)
Yes, you do and yes, you are.

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(Anonymous)
2008-03-21 07:27 pm UTC (link)
It's interesting that you find the depiction of prostitution in Kushiel's Dart to be reasonable, respectable, or holy. I felt the subject was treated in a rather disturbingly glamorized manner; for me, these scenes function mostly as a way to distinguish the truly masochistic impulses of the heroine from the abusive nature of the society at large.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-21 10:52 pm UTC (link)
Hi Mr. H! (I assume) I'm surprised that you read the society as abusive ... really very surprised, actually. I read it as a very different and possibly better way for a society to deal with sex in general, and prostitution specifically. What about the fact that violating safewords, and rape, are both heresy? Although, granted, there's an alarming element of sex slavery in the whole "making your marque" thing ... but this is actually addressed at some point in the series, maybe the second book (Phédre insists that adepts be given more options or something, I can't actually remember how she does it, but she basically fixes it), and of course there is the whole part where everyone emphasizes that swearing oneself to Naamah must be done willingly (and that to do otherwise is heresy).

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(Anonymous)
2008-03-21 11:57 pm UTC (link)
Quite right. If I were to log in you'd see my Donato Giancola icon, and then what would you think of me? So my basic thinking about prostitution in KD is this (keeping in mind I'm not through the book yet). The society certainly handles sex work in a better way than ours, but not in a way that is fantastically different. In fact, the regulations and respect given to the women/men in the book differ from legalized prostitution only in that it comes through religion rather than government. I feel that while on the surface Carey sets up this elaborate way of making the situation palatable, you have only to look at the sex scenes to see what's really going on. Carey doesn't change anything about her modes of representation in these scenes, and thus it's clear that the story hails from the romance novel here and now, not Terre d'Ange. Not that the scenes can't be erotic, but sexy is different from S&M-y, and in my mind this doesn't function when ole-pricked-by-the-gods is paired with a succession of chauvinistic, abusive johns. There are a few scenes, of course, that wonderfully render this energy, but for me none of them occurred as a function of prostitution.

+ Valerian House: why isn't that scary place heresy? I assume because it's a sexy visit to the back story shop.

+ Why aren't they all preggers?

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-22 12:58 am UTC (link)
I didn't even know who Giancola was until Google told me, but I imagine I would have thought the same of you as ever, though I would have been surprised you didn't have something rarer or stranger for an icon. Are you secretly trying to prevent me from stalking you?

Do you really think the regulations and respect are so similar? Hmm ... they seemed really different to me. But that might partly be a function of having read, like, five books set in this world -- it's possible that Carey expresses these aspects better as the series goes on ... in fact, I think she pretty much does.

I mean ... Phèdre is an extreme submissive masochist. The scenes aren't abusive, they're consensual. She has a safeword and everything -- what other whore has ever had a safeword? The people who are hiring her are sadists / doms.

+ Valerian House bothered me, because while it would seem fine to me for there to be a house of masochists if they were all perfectly fine with it, it seemed like the guy she met there was not at all happy about being a masochist (he talked about how much he hated the blades, etc, and didn't really express any positive feeling about being a Valerian house prostitute at all). That was really weird and jarring for me in the context of the setting. I actually noted that in my letter to Carey, but unfortunately Carey sort of blew it off. I really wish I knew what she was thinking on that score -- it's like she's trying to empower masochists by having this really strong masochistic main character, but she makes this masochistic character seem unique, as if the only reason she could possibly *be* a masochist is that she was chosen by the gods.

+ I wondered this too, initially. Apparently D'Angelines have a special godly privilege, which is that they don't get pregnant until they light a candle to the angels. Carey doesn't actually make this clear until the second book; maybe someone pointed it out to her :P.

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(Anonymous)
2008-03-22 11:36 pm UTC (link)
Just because something's consensual doesn't mean that it isn't abusive - at least from one partner's perspective. Like you said, the line between the male sadist/dom and the abuser is thisclose. And while Phedre is pricked by the gods to enjoy supernatural pleasure, her clients seem to be of the "ham-fisted sons of merchants" variety. They're less interested in worshiping an anguisette than they are in expressing abusive fantasies with the first d'Angeline who'll actually put up with it. It's a thin distinction, but it's a cliche treatment of bdsm that drags down the book's loftier ideas.

What other whore has a safeword? How about ones at legalized, regulated brothels?

+ I agree with you on this. The idea of people trained into masochism is a stab at a pretty tired aspect of bdsm titillation. But in the context of the noble system of prostitution Carey sets up, it's a disturbing anomaly.

+ adsfasdf. It's a pretty convenient omission. I was guessing she would invoke silphium.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-03-24 07:37 pm UTC (link)
Interesting. I'm not sure if you're making a good point, because I'm not sure how I would picture the way S&M "should" be in a society that actually celebrated sex, respected women, etc. If you were trying to design an S&M scene that wasn't so "ham-fisted son of merchant", what would it look like? Not that you have to answer this in a public forum or anything, but it's an interesting question, to my mind.

Would whores in legalized, regulated brothels have safewords? I'm not so sure. Maybe. Do Nevada whores have safewords?

I have often wondered if silphium was actually as awesome as it was rumored to be.

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(Anonymous)
2008-03-25 02:06 am UTC (link)
It's a slippery slope saying how something 'should' look, especially since it's easy to make a shallow distinction between the erotic and the perverted (ie, the erotic is what -I- like, the perverted is what -everyone else- likes). But I still think it's a representation that can be changed, though maybe not in the context of an S&M fantasy novel. The real point I'm making is that the setup of the society is kind of a conceit when the sex scenes are so grounded in... well, for example, why in a society that respects servants of Naamah does a man use "whore" as an insult?

+Nevada prostitutes certainly can object to anything, and are often monitored over intercom to assure that they aren't violated. So for all intents and purposes, regulating prostitution gives sex workers all the power Carey ascribes to the safeword.

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