Shataina ([info]dragonladyflame) wrote,
@ 2008-04-24 03:00:00
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2AM insight of the day
Discuss:

The idea of "female mystery" -- female sexual mystery, female emotional mystery -- is one of the most damaging cultural concepts for women. It not only leads men to feel like they don't need to bother with understanding women (and often, therefore, with aiding women or contributing to female liberation); it also leads women to feel like they don't have the right to be understood.

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[info]dvitol
2008-04-24 07:23 am UTC (link)
You're irrational and your parts aren't like ours.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-04-26 06:48 am UTC (link)
As my mom emailed me to say (in response to my assertion in this post), "It's that pool of blood under your chair. I wish I had a whirring chain saw for every man I've heard say something like, 'If it bleeds, kill it.'"

('Never trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn't die' is a bad one, too.)

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[info]dvitol
2008-04-26 07:20 am UTC (link)
Your mom should read Hothead Paisan. It makes me and my penis slightly uncomfortable. I should go back and re-read it, though.

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[info]myonlyanodyne
2008-04-24 07:44 am UTC (link)
Would you characterize this "female mystery" as a condition women create voluntarily, or is a byproduct of typical female existence? Is the mystery linked to the perception of emotional volatility most people, men or women alike, would allude to in a woman's psyche?

Is it a strictly female desire, to find the security in being "understood"? Can anyone, male or female, be understood? Both genders are vast oceans of sexual and emotional mystery, but the dichotomy exists when women crave understanding of it, and men crave blissful ignorance of it. So goes the struggle: to know or not know. Who is happier?

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-04-26 06:53 am UTC (link)
I certainly don't think that "female mystery" is a "natural" or "inevitable" byproduct of female existence. When you get into cultural stuff like this though, it's tricky, because oppressed groups don't always reject standards / ideas that are problematic for them -- indeed, they often try to co-opt and use those standards in ways they consider advantageous. So, while I think "female mystery" is a "condition" that women have pressed upon them, I also think that most women are willing to exploit it in certain ways. I'm certainly not innocent of this.

I think the perception of emotional volatility is a huge part of it, yeah.

Do all men crave blissful ignorance of emotional understanding? I'm not convinced this is the case; however, I do accept that most men seem to have a lot more trouble processing emotional intimacy than women do. I went to see the lecturer Jackson Katz recently (he's written some cool stuff about masculinity), and I talked to him about some stuff after the lecture; one point that he made was that he thinks a lot of men (a) really have no idea what they're missing in terms of emotional intimacy; (b) freak out during breakups partly because they lose the person who's been doing all their emotional work for them.

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[info]miketodd13
2008-04-24 03:34 pm UTC (link)
Mystery generally creates a sense of, "I must solve this!" right? Personally, I like to try to understand people in general, but the differences between the female and male mindsets are especially interesting. Then again, maybe that's just my personality type. If there's something unknown, then I must know it. If there is an obstacle, I must overcome it. If there is a puzzle, I must solve it. I always assumed other people had that curious urge too, but maybe I'm projecting.

The idea of the female "sexual mystery" (I assume alluding to the belief that women are hard to please in bed?) seems ludicrous to me. Visit literotica.com, check out some online guides to pleasing women (written BY women), and there is no mystery. The only real trick is being empathic to your partner's wants, but even if you're not, you can always just flat out ask.

However, I see how a certain level of "mystery" could cause some to say, "Well, that can't be solved, so fuck it. Not gonna waste my time trying." Or perhaps a more common example: "Why'd she flip out on you, dude?" "I dunno, women are crazy." Whereas maybe if he'd think about it a little more, he'd realize, "Oh... she probably didn't like that I was flirting with the waitress right in front of her face."

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[info]burtlo
2008-04-24 03:55 pm UTC (link)
I think this is why quite a few women like geeks. As we are generally natural problem-solvers.

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[info]miketodd13
2008-04-24 03:58 pm UTC (link)
Hah, I'm reminded of when one of my female friends from Louisville said, "I love geeks. They have no self-esteem, so they'll never turn you down." But, possibly what you said, too. :)

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[info]burtlo
2008-04-24 04:02 pm UTC (link)
Thats usually what makes the relationship, longer term, difficult when they start getting a little clingy/needy based on their low self esteem.

But generally I'd like to think that the "geek" has quite a bit of potential based on their ability to deconstruct more of reality and solve some of these mysteries.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-04-26 06:54 am UTC (link)
Sexual mystery also has to do with stuff like menstruation and pregnancy, but sexual pleasure is a huge part of it, yeah.

Good examples. :grin:

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[info]fleurs_du_mal
2008-04-24 08:12 pm UTC (link)
actually I feel that I've been turned down by a number of guys for girls who instead of being straight-forward, open and honest about their needs fit the whole "female mystery" stereotype to a t...for some stupid reason a lot of guys seem to fall for the whole irrational " I don't know what I want so I'm going to flit around playing with you and making you feel like shit based on my whims" attitude among girls.
It's definitely damaging, just in a way that makes even less sense. I think a lot of girls put on that role intentionally and a lot of guys buy into it because it's in human nature to want what seems hard to get or something. I think it's all idiotic.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-04-26 06:59 am UTC (link)
I totally agree with you, but I don't think that means it isn't damaging ... I think girls who co-opt the whole "female mystery" thing are basically convincing themselves that they're using a problematic stereotype for their own good ... you know, like oppressed groups do that, a lot of them sort of justify the crap that keeps them down by "turning it to their own advantage".

It ends up sucking a lot for the women who use it, though, because they end up with relationships that lack intimacy / understanding. As an example, catching a guy who loves mystery is all very well, but it starts sucking when (a) he refuses to try and learn what you want in bed and (b) you have trouble articulating it because you never figured out how to communicate these things. See what I'm saying?

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[info]fleurs_du_mal
2008-04-26 01:22 pm UTC (link)
Um...I wrote that "its definitely damaging". :-P
So yeah, we're totally on the same page ;-)

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-04-26 06:24 pm UTC (link)
I guess in retrospect I'm not sure why I thought we did disagree. Sorry.

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[info]fleurs_du_mal
2008-04-26 08:31 pm UTC (link)
don't worry about it! I only bothered to correct you because I wanted to clarify that I agree with you...I misread comments a lot actually. Another problem is that with the internet, you have only words to rely on for communications like these...you can't see the other person's face or hear their tone of voice so it gets confusing at times. There's nothing to apologize for though, I wasn't offended or anything :D

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[info]agnoster
2008-04-24 08:39 pm UTC (link)
I don't think that the concept of "female mystery" is the only reason I often don't understand how women's minds work. For what it's worth, they often don't seem to understand me, either. And that's not just men/women - I don't understand most Americans. In the end, I think it's just that people are weird and irrational. Women do not have any kind of cultural monopoly on this. Hello, professional sports?

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-04-26 07:01 am UTC (link)
It seems like it's fashionable to address gender studies questions by saying "All people have this problem!", but I'm becoming increasingly convinced that it's not incredibly useful beyond the shallow end of the thinking pool. Sure, everyone's weird and irrational, but there's still a stereotype of female mystery out there that could use some addressing.

Are you referring to pro sports as mysterious, or just weird and irrational?

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[info]agnoster
2008-04-26 07:23 am UTC (link)
"Are you referring to pro sports as mysterious, or just weird and irrational?"

For me, it's both.

I don't know, maybe I just don't get what you mean by "female mystery." Is there a definition you're working off of?

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-04-26 09:01 am UTC (link)
Not exactly ... more just examples. I guess I thought it was such a widespread stereotype that it didn't need explanation, but I have been demonstrated wrong about these things before. Examples include: "whatever, bitches are crazy"; the "romantic" conception of men shaking their head and smiling, "women are a mystery"; women saying stuff like, "you aren't supposed to understand me, darling, I'm the one who has to understand you"; the general fear and awe surrounding menstruation; does this help?

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[info]agnoster
2008-04-26 03:21 pm UTC (link)
*confused*

I've certainly heard things similar to "whatever, bitches are crazy" - but I'm pretty sure I've heard similar claims about the male gender.

Pretty sure I've never heard "the 'romantic' conception of men shaking their head and smiling, 'women are a mystery'" - I'm not even sure what that means, actually. Like... women are a mystery, which is consequently hawt?

I've never heard anyone, male or female, say anything remotely resembling "you aren't supposed to understand me, darling, I'm the one who has to understand you." Even after you replace "darling" with something that might be said to me non-ironically.

And... "fear and awe" around menstruation? Really?

A study showed kids actually don't understand math any better when given concrete examples, because they don't learn to generalize. I'm still really confused by these examples - can you think of a way to define it? I checked Wikipedia and Google, but didn't find anything but "Murder She Wrote."

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[info]agnoster
2008-04-26 03:34 pm UTC (link)
So, Joan gave me a definition: "Women are so complicated that men, who are simple creatures, have no responsibility to understand them." If that's the case, I think it's at least as damaging to men as to women - if not more. Culture expects us to be simple, stimulus-response, insert-beer-receive-sperm machines, and we're NOT. We're human beings, for fuck's sake, we have hopes and dreams and feeling and emotions and I'm sick and tired of being told those attributes are women-only. And all we get in exchange are Yorkie bars!

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-04-26 06:20 pm UTC (link)
:grin: I agree that it's problematic for men. Please thank Joan for giving you a definition, because I was struggling with finding a way to explain it.

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[info]agnoster
2008-04-26 07:16 pm UTC (link)
I guess my main concern is that I feel like we need to start making it clearer that gender issues are not solely - nor even primarily - women's issues. As the saying goes, women's rights are human rights. There's nearly always a flip-side to any gender stereotype, and while some progress has been made towards giving women the freedom to chart their own course, there are plenty of areas where this has not trickled down to men. I'm not saying that men are suddenly the oppressed ones - that's flagrantly bullshit, though you still hear it a lot from the right-wing reactionary types. But consider something as simple as the fact that women wear pants all the time, but if a guy's wearing a dress - well, that's a statement. Women are now generally accepted in the workplace, but we've a long way to go before stay-at-home dads aren't implicitly discarding their masculinity.

Those may seem like silly examples, but I think gender equality is only possible if we take it *literally*, and that means recognizing and raising awareness about the ways in which gender roles restrict people of all genders from deciding their own place in life.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-04-26 06:23 pm UTC (link)
That's an interesting study. And here I thought that if I learned to give more concrete examples of gender studies stuff, it would help. Huh.

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[info]agnoster
2008-04-26 07:18 pm UTC (link)
It may only apply to math, and not gender studies. Here's an article about the study.

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[info]epinicion
2008-04-24 11:37 pm UTC (link)
I am curious/concerned if this was in any way prompted by our discussions . . .

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-04-26 07:01 am UTC (link)
Nope, it was just a thought that made me jolt upright in bed in the middle of the night.

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[info]balthial
2008-05-05 09:24 pm UTC (link)
Ok, but women are hard to understand and most men are not inclined to try.

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[info]dragonladyflame
2008-05-06 02:51 am UTC (link)
Way to illustrate the stereotype. :grin:

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[info]balthial
2008-05-06 09:26 am UTC (link)
Clever jab =)

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